Intuition Covered by Thinking

Complete English transcript — About transcripts

Editorial note: This transcript of a spoken talk has been lightly edited to read well as written text, keeping the speaker’s voice and meaning; the wording was adjusted with great care. We recommend listening to the original audio recording too.

To talk about intuition and logic. Because Robert and I have been communicating about it. Intuitively. Or logically. Most of the time, we think we are living our lives. I am living my life. I, Michael, am living my life in England. And when I go back, I'm going to go to London, and then I have an appointment on Wednesday, and then on Friday I have another appointment, and I have some work, and this is the life I am living. So, most of us think most of the time we are living our lives in that way. And only a few of us notice that our lives are living us. So while we're thinking about our lives, our lives are happening.

While we're thinking about what's going to happen, something is happening. And then something is happening. And then something is happening. And we don't notice this. We only notice our consciousness seeing our life going forward. And so we think that we are thinking how to live. We don't notice that there is another process by which we are making decisions. This process, or this, what shall I call it, way of doing things in Buddhism is called intuition. Or prajñā. And prajñā in Sanskrit means pra, before, jñā, knowledge or thought. So, of course, Buddhism is very ancient. So the theory of Buddhism is not based on science.

But nevertheless, thousands of years ago, people who were practising zazen or dhyāna said there is something very important in living, which is called prajñā. And we don't notice how much of our life is decided by prajñā. Because our consciousness is always in our area of thinking or logic. So we don't notice what is going on while we're thinking. And if we're thinking very hard about something, we don't notice what's going on at all sometimes. So there seem to be two ways of our life moving forward. And one way is by our thinking and our decision based on our thinking.

Which is very familiar to us all. So I'm catching a plane on Monday at 9:30 at Prague. So I have to leave from Pavel's place at maybe eight o'clock. I can think and calculate. Check-in is maybe nine o'clock, should be okay. So I'm thinking my future life, then I'm going to do it. And the other way of living that's happening every moment is I'm making intuitive decisions. I'm not thinking about it. Ah, coffee, not tea.

Three biscuits, with honey on one biscuit. Sit in the same chair. All these small decisions I'm not thinking about. But all these small decisions are my life itself. And same for you. Sit on the floor, sit on the seat. Listen, speak. Think about something. Stop. Move your head. So, a whole area of our life is living itself. Because we're not consciously, logically thinking about it. So these two ways both exist in our life. But in modern life, we know the first way, logical way.

We don't notice the second way or intuitive way. But very excellent people who are studying psychology and so on in modern times are discovering this is true. And one person—Robert discovered a book. He wrote a book called Doctor Professor

Robert: Kahneman.

Mike: Kahneman. So he's written a book, which is really nice. Although I didn't read it, I only heard about it. But it seems to be a similar idea, or the same idea. And Mr. Kahneman is a Nobel Prize economist and professor of psychology, so he's a very excellent person. And he discovered something, or he explained something, which is very similar to what Buddhism is teaching. Hooray, we won, hooray. Can you translate?

Roman: I have already translated.

Mike: I didn't hear the hooray. You know, hooray. My small decision is to say it quietly. I don't feel... Hooray! Very good. Perfect translation. And it's very interesting that we can start to understand some very simple fact in our lives, which we can't see. When I'm thinking where to go, my life is going. When I'm worrying how to live, I'm living. Wow. In Czech? In Slovak?

Boris: Because there is no translation.

Roman: Wow.

Mike: Oh.

Roman: Would you mind saying a little bit about the book?

Mike: Just as a kind of summary.

Robert: Okay.

Mike: Yeah.

Robert: Can I say it in Slovak?

Mike: Yeah, in Slovak. Okay. Intuitively, you can decide.

Roman: The professor has been working on this for about thirty years, and he always finds out

Robert: He's trying to pose some hypotheses and then prove or disprove them with experiments, so it's not just a theory. This is interesting for me.

Roman: They have discovered that thinking could be divided into two parts, and they call it system one, system two. He says it's only a kind of metaphor, this system one, system two, because in fact in our brain there is not a single area that is responsible for this, and another area is responsible for the other system. He says that system one is about the things we have to deal with quickly, like when a ball is flying towards us and we catch it, or when we wash the dishes and we don't have to think slowly. He says it's a kind of quick thinking: we make quite quick decisions about how to do simple things.

Robert: It can handle, it can very quickly solve many common situations. So everything we are accustomed to do, it can do very quickly, and what is important: it is also effortless, so we can do it very easily. That is, you deal with everyday situations without effort. For example, if we ride a bicycle, we know how to ride a bicycle, so we do not need any brain effort in various situations. I sit zazen, I do not need to think.

Roman: The system two is something like logical thinking. What is special about it is that it deals with situations that are not common. Like in mathematics, two plus two is a quick, simple thing. You just know the result, but when there is a complex equation, you have to work on it. All of a sudden there is a sign in a language we understand. We all automatically read it. We don't ignore it.

Robert: Also, we can't decide not to read it. So the system one is interesting in that it is not under the control of the will, that it works automatically. For example, we recognise very quickly whether the person in front of us is angry.

Roman: There is no willpower involved. It is quick thinking. We cannot decide not to think or react.

Roman: She says that this system one probably works based on memory. Memory only. She thinks it's not intuition but memory.

Mike: Maybe. Anyway, you have to read the book. I didn't read the book. I just like the idea. And maybe Professor Kahneman's theory is about memory, or he says there are two kinds of thinking. In Buddhism, we say thinking and something different from thinking. So prajñā is different from thinking. So, in our modern world, it's almost impossible for us people to imagine doing something without thinking. So maybe Professor Kahneman's is quick thinking. How about different from thinking? I want to extend his theory. What is different from thinking? There's a famous koan story where a master is sitting in zazen, and his student is walking near, and he says, What are you doing, master, in the very still position? And the master says, I'm thinking, not thinking. And the student says, How can you think not thinking?

Participant: That's not a paradox, yeah.

Mike: And the master says, It's different from thinking. So in this simple story from more than a thousand years ago, the master is explaining that when he's in zazen, he has a state which is different from thinking. And this is the state which is called prajñā. So in zazen, without any experiment or any scientific basis, people said there's thinking, and there's something else which is different from thinking. So two systems. There are two states. And more than that, it says the state which is different from thinking is our basic state. Everybody has it. So, it's like here is the state, the natural state, where we have—different from thinking—intuition. We don't know what it is. But we cover it up with thinking. Shall I do? Shall I do this? Shall I do that? And then after that, we put more emotion on top. Oh, I'm frightened to do it. Oh, I want to do it very much. I don't want to do it.

And then on top of that, we put other people's opinions. Do you think I should go? I mean, I think maybe I should. Then we are confused. I thought I was right, and Robin said I should go. I'm afraid to go. I don't want to go. Maybe it's better to go. And backwards and forwards and round and round.

So Buddhism says uncover intuition. Take it off. Take it off. Ah, there it is. Okay, I know what to do. And zazen is a method to uncover the simple state. Or, in other words, prajñā. So if Professor Kahneman's theory is pointing in that direction, I think it's really nice. But actually, in the modern world, it's almost impossible to imagine not thinking. For thousands of years, we have believed that thinking is how we live. And so it's impossible to imagine living without thinking. It sounds stupid and random. So maybe sometimes it is. But we have lost confidence in our intuition.

So we need to find confidence in our intuition. That is doing something not based on thinking. So what would you like to say?

Participant: So when we were talking about how to think about different things, I remember I used to play in a band. I played bass guitar, and when you play a musical instrument, there's no time to think where to put your fingers. When you want to compose a song, you also have to have some kind of structure, but you cannot really think. So when you want to get closer to intuition, how it works, then all kinds of artistic activities can help us, because you cannot think in them. You can think about the structure, but the creation itself is not based on thinking.

Participant: Yes. Sometimes, if you're not doing conceptual art.

Participant: I used to be very excited about painting, and I thought this painter, he thought too much. I was 18, I didn't know about this. I thought he thought how he should paint a tree instead of painting it. Or in music too, even in, like, symphonies. I was thinking that music is more beautiful when it is not based on so much thinking. If there is a lot of thinking, you can feel it. It was too much.

Participant: In martial arts, when I do something hundreds of times, when I do a movement a hundred times, then it becomes part of my subconscious. It's the same principle as playing a bass guitar. Or driving.

Roman: So it seems, in the old Zen monastery, it was very, very rough, and they had to get up in the morning and the people yelled at them. The senior monk was to teach them to stop thinking.

Mike: Maybe, I don't know. Maybe it made them very afraid, then they worry.

Roman: Is it possible to explain the relationship between intuition and rationality, rational thinking? Because he's read somewhere that intuition is not irrational at all, but we are not aware of the logical or the rational elements, the links within intuition. I read a story when a scientist discovered some kind of physical theory when he was taking a bath in the sea, because it all clicked together. Is it possible to find a connection between intuition and emotions or rational thinking?

Mike: Yes, but it depends what you believe. So if you believe everything is rational, then you can say intuition is rational, but we just can't see the process. That's because we believe in rationality. But if we don't believe in rationality, we can say intuition contains wisdom. No process. God is speaking. Or universe is speaking. So our explanation depends on our belief.

But I talked, I think, in Slovakia last year about the spider. No, forget. It doesn't matter about that. The point is, we are rational people, beings, in the way in which a dog is— oh no, no, sorry, dog, sorry— in the way as maybe some other animal may not be. We don't know. At least we're very much more rational than other living beings. So we have excellent technology and tables and chairs. Maybe a stone is also rational, but it didn't build tables and chairs. So because of our excellence, we believe very strongly that thinking and doing are separate. We believe it very, very strongly. Thinking is in this space called mind, consciousness.

And it is separate from doing in this space called the physical world. But this is our habit of thought. And I would like to suggest that thinking and doing are not separate in the natural world. So we think intelligence is here, and action is here. And we almost completely forgot the intelligent action. So intelligence is here. And my partner Lisa is a potter. And she makes pots with her hands. But the pots don't come from her mind. So she's talking on the telephone. And it just appears. So you could say memory, okay, but something more than memory. Intelligent action for me. That means thinking and doing are one thing. And all simple activity in sport, art, music. But we divided thinking and doing. Even in Greek times, with Plato. And then we believe. Yes, yes, thinking separate, doing separate. But if we let go of this belief, we have thinking-doing, intelligent action. That means action which is whole of us. So this is what Dogen talks about in his writings.

So, healing the break between body and mind. And the break between body and mind is the cause of our excellent civilization. And the cause of all our pain and suffering. So we have to find a way to have both. Excellent civilization, excluding pain and suffering. So we go to work and practise zazen. We think about our life, we go to the gym. We worry about tomorrow. We play the piano.

Boris: Do you think we can decide between being more logical and thinking more about our lives, or going in the direction of being more irrational or intuitive? How we want to describe this: if we can decide consciously.

Mike: No, I can't decide. So sometimes I notice my life is living, and I can watch it. Ha ha, I see. I'm doing this. I didn't decide.

Boris: So I have one comment about this body and mind. We always know the situation when we are nervous, for example, in some circumstances. We notice the nervousness here in the stomach, and the body has more knowledge or more wisdom than our mind. But now in these times, we don't hear our body, we don't hear the wisdom of the body.

Mike: Yes.

Boris: That is to make it conscious: I hear my body. I

Mike: Yes.

Boris: hear what my body is doing,

Mike: Yes.

Boris: so it's saying to me.

Mike: Yes.

Boris: That is what I wanted to say, that I can do it consciously. Maybe in this case.

Mike: Okay, yes.

Boris: Maybe, maybe

Mike: Yes.

Boris: maybe not in all cases, but... Do you know the situation when you are nervous and you feel the nervousness in the area of the stomach, the belly? Nowadays people mostly ignore what the body tells us. It is also a certain habit, which starts at some point, but when we keep repeating it, within ten years it becomes an illness. And this is also one of the things where we can decide to perceive things more intuitively than rationally. That's the reason of many civilization diseases,

Mike: Yes.

Boris: I think.

Mike: Yes.

Participant: If you have a headache, you take a pill and the headache is gone.

Roman: So when I have some pain, I just intuitively grab a pill, a headache pill.

Mike: So what?

Participant: I have a question. I will try to explain the idea. I remember, for example, our graduation: a friend and I both graduated from college, having studied electrical engineering. The handing over of the diplomas took place in a theatre, and during the rehearsal of the graduation ceremony, we looked into the auditorium. And there was nobody. We both looked from about the same spot at the same thing. And I noticed how richly decorated the theatre was, all kinds of colours and golden arcades. I told him, Look how beautifully red it is. And he was standing next to me, and he was also amazed, but he said, Look how full of electronics it is here. There were speakers, cables, all kinds of audio electronics. I also had noticed it, but it wasn't important for me. He also noticed the red colour, but it wasn't important for him. We both looked at the same thing, but we both chose something else from the reality. So that's the same situation with my brother. When we are in the field, I can see a hare in the field, but my brother can see field in the hare. So I'd like to know where this intuition comes from, as if each of us had a different kind of intuition when we come across the same thing. With my friend, we were in the same theatre but saw different things, although we were looking at the same thing. Is this really about intuition?

Boris: Maybe this is not about intuition, but about how we perceive things.

Participant: I would also like to ask a question. I have a friend who is practising Taoism, and in Taoism there is a meditation similar to zazen, but they call it something like conscious death, simply dying. It is a kind of meditation, like a simulation of dying, as if we were in a coffin or something.

Participant: That state, well, I also read some interesting things recently; it was about the idea of one's own death—I am not talking about zazen—helping people to get somehow more out of themselves. It's a state where you should experience like a virtual death, so then you are not afraid of dying. Like with some Vikings, before going to battle, they had to go through this ritual where they virtually died. So going into the battle, they were already kind of mentally dead, so they were not afraid of anything. It gave them like ten times more strength because they were not bothered by their emotions. They were not weakened by any kind of fear. If a child gets stuck under a truck, the mother has so much power she can lift the truck to save her baby, to save her child. So I think zazen could help us to be free from all kinds of fears and all kinds of desire.

Mike: Why do you want to be free from fear and desire? Are you afraid of fear?

Participant: Not really, but maybe sometimes it could be an obstacle to our intuition, because we have lots in our head. Maybe, but I don't have any experience of such a perfect state.

Mike: And I don't need to practise dying, because if I become very strong and fearless before I die, it makes no difference, I die.

Participant: Zazen seems to me like that, because we cannot move, we are just sitting there without moving.

Mike: Yeah.

Participant: So it seems like a kind of conscious mortification for him, zazen seems to be.

Mike: And enjoy it. Even your posture is not so good. It doesn't matter.

Mike: Five minutes.

Participant: Maybe I have got one thing. I think that Western societies, maybe modern Western societies, are built on intuition in a philosophical way, but people don't recognise it, because we have names like dark zone, I don't know, blah blah. Many philosophers with pure intuition, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Camus, it's really people whose main philosophical problem was to get thinking and to get it out. And I have many times found things which are similar or the same in the Buddhist world and in philosophy, in intuition. But I think it's not common in our society, this problem.

Participant: What if I can react to this? Because I think it is not possible to stop thinking only by thinking. It's very important to sit now, to have some practice. I have this experience from my studies in philosophical faculty, studies on Mahayana and so on, and I said, Come on, let's sit zazen, and they said, No, no, no, no. And that's the point. So it's all in practice. So to come into practice is a big step.

Participant: I have experience. I was in a public school, like a basic school, and we had many things which a normal school doesn't have. It's really, really all these things. It's more artistic, more... but math is based on intuition and all these things. So I think we have practices in Western society, but for some reason we wouldn't find it, wouldn't apply it. It's my experience.

Mike: Thank you. Shall we stop?

Participant: It just came to my mind, last sentence, that Pink Panther, at the beginning of one episode,

Mike: Yeah.

Participant: he found the stolen diamond,

Mike: Yeah.

Participant: and he says to the people, to the guards, “Don't tell me anything. I want to let my intuition develop fully.”

Participant: Maybe wrong question? No. What is the difference, or what is more useful for me, or what is the difference to practise zazen or to play bass guitar, if those experiences are the same?

Mike: First part, bass guitar is like this. Oh, like that. And zazen is like this, so they're different.

Participant: If I want to uncover the…

Mike: Yes.

Participant: I can put the name of it here. I can

Mike: You can choose.

Participant: I can choose.

Mike: Yeah. This or that.

Participant: We want both, but…

Mike: Okay.

Participant: Maybe you have different…

Mike: No, I don't have any answer.

Participant: None.

Mike: We can choose. We can all choose.

Participant: But if it's the same effect?

Mike: Yes. So some people do running, some people like swimming, some people like painting, some people like bass guitar.

Participant: But you can come to the same state like with zazen.

Mike: Zazen is simpler. There's no music, no water, no paint. So it's simpler, but maybe more difficult.

Participant: But the question is whether all these things have the same goal, the same result, or achieve some goal. I think not.

Mike: Okay.

Participant: Zazen has different results from playing the guitar. Maybe similar, but not the same.

Mike: Okay. So he can answer.

Participant: That's just a balance.