Making Dogen's Words Our Own
Mike: we cannot see Dogen, so we test his words in our own experience and find our own words
Michael Eido Luetchford
August 2012 — Dibbavana, Talk 4.
Venue: Dibbavana, Mariánské Lázně, Czech Republic.
Michael Eido Luetchford · August 2012 — Dibbavana, Talk 4
Source: audio transcript.
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Audio
20120924-Sedliste-Questions.mp4 in the Google Drive folder
What the talk says (short overview) — About these overviews
Asked why he sounded less certain than usual about what Dogen taught, Mike says that he does not mean that he is flexible about Dogen's meaning, but that everything which is written is written by one person, so writing is always also about the writer. Because Dogen is dead and there are only maybe two pictures of him, Mike says that we have to imagine what kind of man he was, and only then can we understand why he said, for instance, that one has to leave one's family. Mike, who reveres Dogen's teaching but is not going to leave his own family, says that we have to guess or intuit what Dogen meant, and that we should reflect on his words and test them out in experience.
Asked whether leaving the family might be meant only symbolically, Mike answers that leaving it emotionally does not work, because the family will not like it. He thinks that Dogen, an aristocrat and orphan who never felt the warmth, the confusion or the embrace of a family, may have been speaking to men who were held back by their families, or to people who, like Mike's sister, do not need a family, and says that we should ask whether our own family really stops us from practising. He doubts a participant's suggestion that Dogen meant someone whose highest priority is a child, because Dogen lived in aristocratic society and then in temples, while Boris adds that life in the thirteenth century was probably hard, with people working twenty hours a day, whereas today one could live in a family and still do zazen. Taking Dogen's words "have small desire" as an example, Mike says that young people have strong desires which they sometimes cannot control, that older people may still feel strong desire but can control it, and that everyone has to reflect on what small desire means in their own life. Wanting something very badly, such as a new car, makes us poor negotiators, he says, and the best position is not to want it so much. He adds that when Dogen writes to practise zazen as if one's hair were on fire, we have to think about what Dogen means, because Mike asks how one can notice who one is when practising fiercely, and that for a practice to last a long time it is better not to do it too strongly. Mike says that we must interpret what any teacher says, himself included, because otherwise it is just copying words, and that repeating "zazen is the peaceful gateway, and the whole universe practices with you" sounds like a story unless we find our own words.
When Boris asks whether he wants them to question why they practise zazen, Mike answers that he has no such intention, only that words sound nice and we should make them our own, and that we are free to do anything, even to stop zazen and see what happens. Robert asks how long one would have to stop to see a result, Boris says that Mike's sentence about being free to do anything with your life scared him, and Mike replies that he is not telling anyone to stop, that one can wonder for a long time without finding out, and that he too was afraid and stopped completely for a month when his hip hurt, after which he simply started again. Mike says that he is afraid of freedom, that freedom is only one person alone, and that he sometimes imprisons himself with ideas such as "I have to do this" or "I can't do this" and then lets himself out again. Roman says that two free months scared him and that it helps him to be limited by a girlfriend's schedule, a participant says that one can be limited and still free if one accepts the situation, and Mike answers that we don't understand what freedom is, because one can be free in a prison cell and also dependent on others, so the problem is how to be dependent and free at the same time, a central problem in relationships. Boris describes freedom as a feeling of space that narrows when we are too much ourselves, Mike says that somebody actually in prison might disagree with such talk, and he suggests that we should stop saying "I can do this" or "I am not able to do this".
Complete English transcript — About transcripts
Editorial note: This transcript of a spoken talk has been lightly edited to read well as written text, keeping the speaker’s voice and meaning; the wording was adjusted with great care. We recommend listening to the original audio recording too.
Roman: Something which might be useful later. You can read this in the protocol. I was— somebody says a joke or a story.
Mike: Do you know the joke about the Zen master who went to a hot dog stand? Maybe it doesn't translate. He said, Make me one with everything. And so the hot dog man made a hot dog, with onion and pepper and sauce and everything. And the Zen master gave the hot dog man a hundred krona note. And he waited for his money. And after some time he said, Where is my change? The hot dog man said, Change has to come from within.
Boris: Same word, different word in English, same word.
Roman: Change, change. It's the same word.
Boris: It's the only joke I know.
Roman: And can we ask all kinds of questions? Or is it too exhausting for you?
Mike: Yeah. Go on then.
Roman: So I'd like to ask that usually, as far as I remember, you speak very clearly about what Dogen taught. You said this and that, even we analysed some of his chapters.
Mike: Yeah.
Roman: Sentence by sentence. And I don't think it's arrogant, but you say clearly, I can explain this, and somebody else cannot explain. There are teachers who— the way they explain Dogen is not what Dogen taught, right? So you speak about this with confidence. But today it sounded like, who knows what Dogen taught, and you sounded very flexible about it. It might mean this or that. But I don't think you lost your confidence in understanding Dogen.
Mike: No, I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that I'm flexible about what Dogen meant. I mean, everything which is written is written by one person. So we can't write objectively. We write about ourselves in our writing. And unfortunately, Dogen is dead. So we can't see him. Even there's only maybe two pictures of him. We can't see what kind of shape he was, what kind of smile he had, what his voice sounded like. So we have to imagine it. Then we can understand why he said, for instance, you have to leave your family.
Because although Dogen wrote, You have to leave your family, and although I revere his teaching, I'm not going to leave my family. So that kind of thing.
Participant: Speaking of leaving one's family, did he maybe mean just symbolically that we should leave it just mentally, not to make family our priority, but maybe practice should be first and then family?
Mike: Maybe. We can't ask him.
Roman: Do you think it's possible to leave a family just symbolically like this, and live in a family?
Mike: No, I think if you leave emotionally from your family, your family doesn't like it. You know, you're in your family, but you're a Buddhist. You know, your children, Daddy, Daddy. No, it doesn't work. So, but he meant something. So he sincerely wanted to say something. So we have to guess. Even if you understand medieval Japanese, you can't see why he said it. Only he wrote the sentence. So you have to guess. Or you have to intuit. Intuit. So you have to think, okay, this is the 13th century. What kind of man? He was an aristocrat, and he was an orphan. He never felt the warmth of a family. Or the confusion of a family. Or the embrace of a family. So from his position, he could see lots of people, men probably, who wanted to practise, but, you know, oh, I can't come, my family needs me. I can't live in the temple with you because my family needs me. Maybe he thought, maybe he saw that, and maybe he thought, I think it's better to practise zazen than to be in the family. Or maybe he was speaking to people who don't need a family.
For instance, my sister never had a partner, never had a relationship, never had a family. She didn't need it. So maybe he's talking to those people. Don't go into family if you don't need a family. Come and find the truth. Or there's nothing to tell us. Only we have to think about it. And reflect. So, is my family stopping me? Well, how is it stopping me from practising? And so on. Then we can find some meaning in what Dogen wrote.
Participant: Maybe he meant someone whose highest priority is his child or her child.
Mike: Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe, but it's doubtful because he didn't live in society. He lived in the aristocratic society, and then he lived in the temple. Then he lived in China. Then he lived in the temple.
Participant: Maybe he followed what Buddha did. He left his family to find the answer to his question. Maybe there was this kind of—
Boris: Yeah, maybe because it was the 13th century, different times.
Robert: Yep.
Boris: If he lived now, he could live in a family and wake up in the morning one hour earlier
Robert: Oh right.
Boris: and time by time doing zazen.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: But in the 13th century it was probably a hard life.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: Man working 20 hours a day.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: Time not—
Robert: Yes.
Boris: So it was not possible to sit zazen.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: So choose this way or this way.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: Or maybe he means leave your family during sitting zazen.
Mike: I was worried, are you mean? We can speculate. I don't mean we can make our own meaning in his words. We can manipulate his writing. I mean we need to reflect on his writing. He says, reflect on these words. Test them out in experience. So, for instance, his words say, have small desire. So we need to test it out. And when we're young, I think we have quite large desire in many ways. We have very strong physical desires when we're young, and also our idealistic, our power of creating ideas. And when we're very old, our desire is less. We need to... No, it's not. You're right. But it is less. Yeah, because when we're young, sometimes we can't control our desire, but when we're older, maybe the desire is strong, but we can control it.
But we need to reflect in our own life, to have small desire. What does it mean?
Participant: Small desire to me means I can more easily give up if it doesn't work out.
Mike: I don't mean desire only in the sexual sense.
Boris: I was thinking more of the desire to be someone. To wish to be Anna would be sexual, I—
Mike: I'm like, you know, if you want something very, very badly. Very strongly. But for instance, if we reflect, if you want something very badly, like for instance a new special model car, you want this. You really want it, so you go to the showroom. And you see, and you sit in, and you go for a drive. And then you think, okay, I have to save money. And then you go back two months later. And you want it, and the salesman says, okay, the price is higher now. And because of your strong desire, you don't negotiate so easily. You maybe try to negotiate, but you say, Ah no, I want it, I want it. Okay, it's okay, it's okay.
So if we're negotiating something, the worst situation is if we want it very much. And the best situation is if we don't want it so much. This is, I think, the rule of negotiating. If you can say, you know, it's too expensive, okay, and you walk away. Yeah, exactly.
Roman: Then Andrew says that you were in relationships too?
Boris: Yeah, it's true. Anything to negotiate.
Roman: If you're dating a woman, you always fail when you want too much, when you want her so much. Oh, you're so wonderful. But when you think, I'm not sure, then she comes.
Boris: That is my experience.
Roman: Where?
Participant: Then in casinos in Las Vegas, the worst clients are very rich retirees.
Boris: All right. My English is a hell out of a place, like, I'm not the right guy anymore.
Participant: These retirees in Las Vegas, they are economically safe, so they don't need money so much. So they go and play in casinos, and they always win. They never lost their money. They don't have big desire to win. To make sure that we stick to the section, you know.
Participant: In Slovakia there is a castle in Trenčín and there is a well. The well is dug directly into the rock on which the castle stands. The well is extremely deep. The legend says that this well was dug by this Omar, who tried to save his partner Fatima from slavery. So he dug that for fourteen years. He dug that well. So that must have been a huge desire to keep—
Mike: If you want to continue something for a long time, it's better to do it not too strongly. If you do it too strongly, after a few weeks you're exhausted. And, you know, Dogen writes, Practise zazen as if your hair is on fire. So does he mean, you know, you should practise all the time, nothing, you shouldn't look outside, you shouldn't eat, because some people do. Some people try to practise zazen as if their hair is on fire. Fiercely, fiercely. But if you practise zazen fiercely, how can you notice who you are? So what does he mean? We have to think about it. And try to make some real explanation for ourselves.
Participant: But it works with me, or it's like this, that I often tend to practise, to slack a bit, like, too formal. And when I read something like that, it gives me the compensation of— not— to compensate my lack of interest in practising. And he says, like as if— so then I find the middle way, so I just practise. But does it make sense?
Roman: He says that for him it also works like this: this could be the last zazen, so I want to enjoy it, because it could be the last.
Mike: Okay. Hmm.
Participant: Okay. Is it balance when you set such a, such a, this is the last zazen? I don't know. I haven't tried it.
Mike: But anyway, what I want to say is, we have to interpret not only Dogen, but what somebody teaches about what I'm teaching. You have to interpret. You have to look at it. What does it mean for me? Otherwise it's just copying words. And you can go to somebody who teaches Buddhism and you can listen to their words and then you can go and say the same words to somebody else, but they're not your words. But if you find out what those words mean for you, then you can say in your own words. If you read in the Shobogenzo where I say, zazen is the peaceful gateway, and the whole universe practises with you. If somebody asks you, what is zazen that you practise?
If you say to them, zazen is the peaceful gateway, and the whole universe practises with you, it sounds like a kind of story. So you have to find your own words.
Participant: My experience with Dogen is it's too complicated, so I usually give it up.
Mike: Yes, that's right.
Participant: Concentrate. [inaudible] I find it. So I try to absorb something here, or learn from my experience, but Dogen is just too hard. And what about, Romano, aren't you thinking of translating more of Shobogenzo to Czech?
Roman: I am now free to do it. Not Shobogenzo, but Mike, like five years ago, suggested we translate Bendowa.
Boris: Really?
Roman: A couple of texts by Mike, so we have done that. And in June, Mike sent me Gakudo Yojinshu, which is a kind of introduction how to follow the way, a Dogen, and it's about ten pages, and I'm working on it now. But to translate the whole of Shobogenzo into Czech, it's a big challenge for someone in the future, I think. Shobogenzo to Czech— these guys translated into English, working with a Japanese teacher, and so it was from Japanese to English. But should I translate from Japanese to Czech? I can't.
Boris: Have I understood correctly what Mike has talked about during this session? Does he want to encourage us to question, why do I practise zazen?
Mike: No, I don't have any intention. I'm just saying, words sound nice. But make them your own. So sitting in a room listening to me entertaining you. I thought you'd laugh. You can sit here, or you can sleep, or you can say, ‘Ah, yes.’
Boris: So I'm entertaining you.
Robert: But Rodner says often that his students expect him to entertain them.
Roman: Who?
Robert: Brother takes his son as student of magician.
Boris: One man show, yeah. And I think it's quite a very good formula. It's a very good solution for a little bit. But you have to—
Mike: Not just hearing the words, you have to do something with your life. And you're free to do anything. You best start. No, you can, for instance, if you think, oh, Mike keeps saying sport is the same as zazen, so I stop zazen, I do sport. Okay, do it. Or if maybe you think, I don't know, I'm doing zazen, but why am I doing zazen? If I stop, I wonder what it's like. Try it. So, isn't dangerous.
Robert: This is the question I'm asking myself. For how long should I not do it, to really experience the result? Or to see. Because I don't know. Okay, we practise zazen and now we think it has some consequences for us, or some effects, but we don't know what we would be like if we hadn't practised. So the right question is, stop practising zazen and see what it does to us. But for how long not to practise, to see the results, half a year, or... I just translated that this was a—
Boris: Well, what Mike said, the sentence, the specific sentence of just, You are free to do anything with your life, made me feel scared. So, just to finish the idea, so maybe we were very comfortable to test this, but I was quite a little bit afraid to do such an experiment, to maybe not do zazen for half a year, and what it will do with me. Isn't that too big?
Robert: I don't have to do it, I know. I will not do it probably, but just the idea. Because I don't know how to arrange our time. I cannot divide it, but it's a good— this is a good question.
Boris: You should teach stop. Maybe Roman, because he is afraid. You should say stop.
Participant: He, he, he, but I would—
Mike: Well, I don't blame already. That.
Participant: Yes, I worry.
Mike: Hey, hey, hey. I'm not saying stop zazen. I'm saying if you want to know the value of zazen, and you wonder if you stop, if it makes a difference, then you can wonder for a long time. But you can't find out the answer. At all.
Boris: Yes.
Robert: But I'm a little bit afraid to test.
Mike: Yeah, me too. I was afraid too.
Robert: Yes.
Mike: When my hip hurt, I stopped completely for one month.
Robert: Okay, you had no other option.
Mike: No, it was okay.
Robert: So then,
Mike: Yeah,
Robert: okay. When you have no option, then it's no selection, so—
Boris: No. You were afraid?
Mike: I was worried, yeah. But nothing happened. I didn't turn into a monster. I think I became a bit more irritable. But anyway, I started again. Why did I start again? I just did.
Boris: And could you comment on the fear of having complete freedom to do, to act— the freedom you are afraid of?
Mike: Yes. Me too. I'm afraid of freedom.
Boris: Yeah, that's a Ducky Williams quote.
Mike: Yeah. So I imprison myself.
Boris: That's a legendary is me.
Mike: I say, I have to do this because somebody wants me to, or somebody expects me to. I think freedom is quite scary. Because freedom is only one person alone. So I think this is frightening, yeah.
Roman: I experienced this at the beginning of this summer holiday. We have two months holidays as teachers. And at the beginning I was very— because we broke up with my girlfriend. I was alone at home and I thought two months of holiday. And I was scared but I could do anything. So I asked someone from Switzerland to come to my place and spend a week with me and help me tremendously. I gave up my freedom and I had to follow a schedule for a week with this woman. And I said several times thank you so much, thank you so much, you gave me so much joy that I didn't have that freedom, in fact.
Participant: You are a Buddhist, so it's normal that you feel lost.
Roman: I have to sleep on the floor because I wanted to be a gentleman. This is your bed, this is my floor. And that discomfort, like Mike was at Mike, and...
Robert: Okay, okay.
Roman: And I said, but people don't understand, the less comfort you give me, the happier I am.
Boris: Buddhist. But it—
Participant: Sometimes. When you accept it for yourself, when you are free, even if you were just alone with yourself. Freedom is also— freedom and solitude. And you can be limited, but at the same time free, because you accept the situation to the extent that, when you are limited, when you look after the kids in Africa, you have terrible conditions, you accept it, and you are free in it.
[inaudible, 00:40:54–00:41:04]
Boris: Ha, ha, ha.
Roman: He said for me, so it helps me when I am limited by the girlfriend, because there is a schedule, I have to do this and that, and when I have freedom to do anything, I feel horrible. I feel lost because of freedom.
Mike: Well, actually.
Participant: So it's not much about freedom. I think in a little bit there's a whole different— I also have that kind of depression at the beginning of holidays, but I explain that to myself like losing the social contact at work, to work. But I also prefer three or four days that have some structure.
Roman: You started to say something.
Mike: Actually, we don't understand what freedom is. You can be free in the prison cell. You can be free in many different ways. But we are also interdependent beings. We live in groups. So how can we be dependent and also independent at the same time? And this problem is a central problem in relationships. How can I be with my partner and also free? It's—
[inaudible, 00:43:40–00:43:47]
Mike: There are many answers.
Participant: I think it means that it really wants to know about itself, who I am, what I am and what I should do in my life.
Boris: I think it's about trying to find out who we really are, and what we are, what our goals are, what we want to achieve, and what is important for us. And when we have figured out these things, then it's easier for us to answer these questions.
Mike: Yes, it's true.
Participant: We have this quite rigid schedule, where we have kung fu and zazen, and so...
Mike: You're not free. She's holding you. No, you can be free when you're dependent. You can be free when you're independent. You can be free in prison. You can be free outside prison. So freedom is a very strange state.
Boris: It's the feeling of the space. Then we can feel, because sometimes we feel very narrow space and sometimes we feel very open space. I think if the space is too small, then we feel not so free, because it's too narrow.
Roman: Physical space?
Boris: No, the mind. Yeah. I think that the mind, if I'm too much myself, too much me, then it's narrow.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: If I'm not so too much with myself, then it's more dry.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: More free. That's my experience.
Participant: I have so many things to do. I have so many interests, so many. The freedom or a vacation, that is fantastic excitement for me, a hope.
Participant: Personally, I'm trying to see things as they are and not try to solve anything. That's the best way for me. So when I look at myself, what should I do with myself then? I feel that fear, that horror.
Mike: But if we talk like this to somebody who's actually in prison, I think they disagree with us.
Robert: Viktor Frankl said, I think this is quite famous, he was in a concentration camp and he said something like, You can be free anywhere and so on.
Mike: It is true.
Robert: It might be an exception.
Mike: It's true, but I would not like to try. Yeah, and from his experience.
Robert: Yes, he was in quite a difficult situation. Yes, he said, You can be free anywhere.
Mike: Yes, but if you go to somebody who's actually in prison and say, You can be free in there, I think they disagree with you.
Participant: It's about the character of the person. It's very individual. It depends on the character, in concrete person. More concrete. Concrete name.
Mike: I could if we could conclude.
Participant: Concrete means the beton. So.
Mike: I could not conclude. I like to put myself in prison, psychologically, and then after a while I let myself out, and I feel, wow. And I imprison myself again. So I can let myself out later. And the things I imprison myself with are very strange, like, oh, I should do this, I have to do that, I can't do this.
Boris: I think it's the balance that we make in this example.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: Sometimes we close ourselves and then we open.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: Same state, like...
Mike: Yes.
Boris: And we can't do it the other way,
Mike: No.
Boris: because it's dead maybe.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: Yeah.
Mike: I think we should stop saying such things like, I can do this or I am not able to do this.
Boris: [inaudible, 00:51:25–00:51:45]
Roman: There is no ideal state, so we sometimes look for the ideal state, and then sometimes we can find... For a while we are open and then we are closed and we open.
Participant: Exactly. Our goal is to be divided.
Roman: But it's better to be aware of it, but not create it.
Mike: Is it enough? Shall we stop?
Participant: Okay.
Mike: Thank you for your time.