Mike says we need only make an effort, not know its result, and that he is happy not making an organization

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I was 33 years old and he was 57 years old. Of course, I couldn't understand what he was teaching clearly. And his explanations in English were not so clear. But to listen to him week after week after week, gradually became able to understand. He hoped that Buddhism, based on the teachings of Master Dogen, could save the world. He seemed to believe that sometime in the future everybody would understand the truths that Dogen was teaching.

In addition to studying the Shobogenzo for many, many years, he also read many books on philosophy and many books about world situation. He had many opinions about the situation in the world. He taught that Master Dogen had four views. Idealistic view, materialistic view, realistic view, and a view based on reality. It's difficult to find a word for the last two views. He discovered these viewpoints in Dogen's writings. And when he studied world history, he saw these same four phases in the development of the world.

He was very well read. So in that way he was very scholarly. And he saw the progress of Western civilization in four phases. He thought that in the early days of human civilization, the early civilizations around the time of the Greeks were idealistic, and that the beliefs of Greek civilization were based on idealistic ideas, Plato and Aristotle, and so on. And he thought that when these idealistic beliefs met the new religion called Christianity, they fitted exactly.

So the Greek belief in perfection of ideas, the perfection of ideas, as in perfection of ideas, which is illustrated in Plato's philosophy about shadows on the back of a cave. Perfection. There is a world of perfect form, and we are trying to be like that world. And he thought that Christianity's belief was similar. God is perfect, and we try to be like God. And if we try very hard, after we die, we enter this perfect world. And these beliefs drove the start of civilization in Western Europe, where physical conditions were very poor.

So actual living conditions were very miserable, but people could hope for a perfect harmonious world in heaven, and they could develop this perfect world in their minds. So a very spiritual time, with wonderful soaring, soaring churches and very spiritual images everywhere. But actual living conditions for most people was very miserable and painful. So he saw that as the first phase. Dogen's first viewpoint.

And then a few people in Europe started to notice the nature of the physical world. Instead of basing their ideas on spiritual beliefs, they started to base their beliefs on what they could see and touch. The birth of scientific investigation. And some of these people who were investigating, based on the physical world, were condemned by the religious spiritual people who were in power. And we can read about this in history, with the birth of astronomy and science and so on.

And very slowly, people realized that these physical explanations were much easier to believe than the spiritual explanations. So slowly they could start to believe that the world had physical laws which were not controlled by some spiritual being. And they could start to investigate these physical laws. So slowly the world became more materialistic. This is Dogen's second viewpoint, that we move from an idealistic into a materialistic viewpoint.

Then Nishijima Roshi saw that the modern, very strong belief in the laws of science didn't seem to be enough. Some people found that just to believe in science has no heart. It's too cold, too mechanical. He saw the events in the last hundred years as a kind of battle between the spiritual view and the idealistic view and the materialistic view. Especially in the conflict between the Soviet system and the free capitalist system based on America.

He thought that the view of the American world, the Western world based on American idealism, and the Soviet communist system based on the materialistic beliefs of Marx would fight. And then somebody would win. But when in the 1980s the communist system seemed to collapse, he thought it was kind of synthesis between the two sides, between the idealistic beliefs and materialistic beliefs. So he felt very hopeful that the world would be entering a new phase, a realistic phase where neither strong materialistic systems nor strong idealistic systems would dominate.

And he thought that's the same as Dogen's third phase. So his dream, or his hope, was the world would enter a fourth phase where people entered reality. He believed this very strongly. And his students found it quite difficult, because we're just a small group of people practicing zazen. So we used to ask him, Do you think everybody will practice zazen in the future? And he would say, Yes, I think so. So, a kind of dream.

But at the same time, his dream, his analysis of the flow of world history is very interesting. He seemed to be saying that we are entering into a phase where the truths that Buddhism teaches would become widely known. Because those truths become widely known, the world would move towards Buddhism. I don't know whether his dream will happen or not. Some of his students are teaching. And our teaching is based on his understanding of Buddhism. His understanding of Buddhism was based on Dogen's teachings and Nishijima's analysis of world history.

He was always very optimistic because he saw the history is flowing in one direction. Although we're having many conflicts, many disagreements, wars and fighting between different religious beliefs. He said the world is flowing towards reality. So it's very optimistic, nice view. How it happens, I don't know. We are a small group. Twelve people this weekend, thirteen. And although we are practicing and studying, not many people come. Nishijima's dream sounds like a big dream. Oh, yeah. But what he says about Buddhism becoming widely known is true, isn't it?

Roman: Yes.

Mike: I mean, things like mindfulness and

Roman: Yes.

Mike: all kinds of things of Buddhism creeping into general use and practice. So I think he's not far off, I reckon. The teachings are spreading without Buddhism, in some ways. Instead of the spread of different religions around the world, we have the spread of football. Football is a very nice sport which may be benefiting human beings more than some religions, because, although the whole industry is built around football and there's lots of competition, at the center, when you kick a ball, it's better to be in a nice state of prajñā. And sport is spreading around the world. Good diet is spreading around the world.

Because of the many conflicts here and there, we are beginning to understand that it's better not to fight. Although it's taken a very, very long time, human beings are realizing that it's possible to negotiate instead of fighting. Sometimes it works. So we are slowly learning. Every scientific discovery teaches us something about the human condition. So in a strange way, without being so clear, the world appears to be moving towards Nishijima's dream.

He never tried to make a big organization. Oh, well, he did once, but that. Generally, he never tried to make a big organization. He never tried to make a powerful organization. He did what he could. And people came and went to his seminars and sesshin, from many countries in the world. And it's impossible to know the result of his efforts. I came back to the UK in 2000. And 14 years later, I'm in Slovakia. And I have no idea of the result of my efforts. And it's not necessary to know the result of our efforts. But just to make an effort.

So we don't need, in my opinion, we don't need to build up a big group. We don't need to have a structure, a hierarchy, although Nishijima was always the teacher. He never made a hierarchy. But so I've been proceeding like that. And something has grown in 14 years. And in the Czech Republic and here, Pavel and Boris and everybody here and Robert. And everybody has been making an effort, and something has grown. My feeling is that it's better for something to grow naturally than to be constructed intentionally. That's only my personal feeling. So, to make an effort, maybe people come, maybe they don't come.

It's okay. Sometimes at Nishijima's retreats, we only had five or six people. Sometimes we had twenty-five or twenty-six. Sometimes forty-five, forty-six. Changing with the years. Not getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But going up and down. I don't know the reason. This kind of very loose organization which we have, it's quite difficult for new people to feel enthusiastic. So one difficulty is when people, new people come. They want to know what are they coming to. What kind of group are they joining? How do they join? What benefit can they get? And so on. I don't know how to solve this problem. I think it's up to everybody to find the solution.

But personally, I'm very happy not making an organization. Because it's easier for me. Carrying on in a similar way to Nishijima. He never tried to attract people. Some of the things he said made people leave. So for nearly eighty years he continued like this. And now there are people all over the world who studied with him. And here and there there are groups like ours. And if they get bigger or stronger, or smaller, I don't know. If we were an organization that had a structure and had courses and charged bigger fees and so on, we could get lots more people. But my idea is not like that. So my idea is rather lazy.

So, if you like to have a group, if you'd like to come to the group to practice together, to study together, it's good. It's great. And you can make your own effort. And something will happen. So Susanna has started a group. So you have people coming. So your group is going somewhere. So from that effort, something happens.

But in my case, I never planned where I'm going. And I found it's not so necessary. This is only my personal view.

Question: Can I have off-topic question?

Roman: Sorry?

Question: Can I have off-topic question?

Roman: Off-topic?

Participant: Yes.

Roman: Oh, yes. I want to ask something that is related to this.

Question: I read some quote from Sawaki, and it is like this: To covet nothing is greatest gift you can give to universe.

Mike: To

Question: Covet.

Mike: Covet. To, yes, to want to get.

Question: What does it mean? How can one interpret it?

Mike: Can you understand the meaning?

Participant: Not sure.

Mike: If you don't want anything, it's a nice situation. If you want to get something, there's an imbalance. Because wanting to get is a kind of feeling. If you don't want to get, then that feeling doesn't exist. So sometimes if we want to get something strongly, it's disturbing. I wanted to get a kayak last week. So I'm thinking about it all the time. So I try to find, wait, wait until I stop wanting it. Which is more comfortable.

I read something that is, I think, a corollary to what he was saying, was that all suffering comes from desire. Which is Buddha's saying that.

Roman: Well, that's true, but I like desire.

Mike: Well, I don't.

Robert: Well, no.

Mike: Or wanting, I mean, I don't mean that kind of desire. Oh, it's part of the twelvefold chain of cause and effect.

Question (Czech): Cause.

Question (Czech): The chain arises from twelve something, links probably.

Pavel: But I think these quotes are quite misleading, at least in my experience, because sometimes people take it like, you know, there's nothing to do, just kind of passive behavior. So, and it's not true. So we need to find some kind of balance in understanding these.

Mike: Yes. The problem with words is they never describe the situation. Kodo Sawaki was talking in Japan in a very materialistic time. Lots of people wanted to get things. And in Buddhism, they wanted to get peace and happiness. So sometimes wanting to get something is disturbing to us. But there is no instruction not to do it. There's no, in his quote, he doesn't say, Don't covet. He just says, Not coveting is very nice.

Question (Slovak): Perhaps one more thing, I perceive it that way, to distinguish between the fact that it is fine to have an intention to do something.

Roman: I feel it's okay to have an intention.

Question (Slovak): But something else is desire, where there is already some emotional attachment, dependence on the result.

Roman: But something else is when we feel some emotional bonding and we are, we depend on the result.

Question (Slovak): The intention is fine.

Roman: That intention is okay,

Mike: Yes, we can't avoid it.

Roman: I also feel a clear difference between wanting something I can get right away, like I want strawberry ice cream very much and there I can buy it, or a woman, my girlfriend, wanting my girlfriend who comes to my house and wanting somebody I can't have is painful and useless. But sometimes I want something I know I can't have, so then I say to myself, just give up. You will never get that. You can't have a Ferrari, so what can I do about it? So wanting something I can have is nice, but wanting something I can't have, or maybe in a hundred years, is disturbing for me.

Boris: What if you don't know, if you can or can't afford it?

Roman: Well, if you are afraid, then it's unpleasant. I'm afraid I will not have enough money to go to Africa or something.

Boris (Slovak): To seize what one can have. I perceive it so that the passive state is not possible, as Pavel said, to remain in it; I even know it very well and I think I almost got lost there.

Roman: I think it is impossible to be in this passive state. And I know that passive state that Pavel mentioned, and I almost got lost in that passive state,

Boris (Slovak): And that it is very important, since we have to act, that is, to perform an act, that

Roman: I think it's very important when we have to act,

Boris: have pleasure,

Roman: to enjoy that acting.

Boris (Slovak): in this we need joy along with it. That means to look for such a way of act, deed,

Roman: To look for that kind of acting

Boris (Slovak): which will bring us joy.

Roman: that brings pleasure or fulfillment.

Boris: That's my attitude.

Roman: Okay.

Mike: It's very difficult talking about things. I don't mean to suggest that we shouldn't have any intention to do anything. But I would like to suggest that some things grow naturally. Part of that natural process is pulling something towards you, pushing something away from you, and finding your way. I don't, I don't mean that you just hire a room and sit in a room.

Robert: Okay.

Mike: What I'm trying to say is, the organized, the Dogen Sangha started with Nishijima Roshi. He never tried to create a big group, to make it bigger. He tried once, and he tried to create International, Dogen Sangha International, when he was very old, and it didn't work. So it's finished. So, I only mean to suggest that with Buddhism, it's not like selling biscuits. If you make biscuits which are very delicious, you can advertise them.

People come and buy them. Then you can make some more. And then you can make a different kind. Then you can advertise. Then you can build a big factory. Then you can build a factory in another country. So the teachings of Dogen are not like that. Dogen himself lived in a little temple in the hills. He moved from a very busy city called Kyoto into a very remote place in the mountains. So in making our effort, with our practice, something happens. So it's not like building a company.

It's not like building an organization. Of course, organization is necessary. But it's something different. That's all I mean. We can't live without intention. We can't live without planning. We can't live without desire. We can't live without thinking. We can't live without making mistakes. That's life.

Pavel: And I think if I look back to history, what Nishijima did in Japan, what you did in the UK, what I did in the Czech Republic, I think it's quite simple. With effort or with focus, it grows. If you stop making an effort, or if you stop focusing on something, then it maybe survives or maybe not. So just making an effort, just focusing on something, something happens and something maybe grows.

Mike: Yes.

Boris: Chauncey, Chauncey Gardner,

Mike: What?

Boris: Being there, growing,

Mike: Ah, Chauncey Gardner.

Boris: not growing.

Mike: And making an effort for Buddhism is very great. Usually we think doing small things is not great. But it's not true. Doing simple things sometimes is very great. We never know the result of doing something very simple with great effort. So when we do simple things to have Buddhist activity, we can think we are changing the world.