Mike says Dogen's writings need to be interpreted from real experience here and now, not from ideas of a better place

Complete English transcript — About transcripts

Hello everybody, welcome to the Dogen Sangha show with Roman and me. There's nobody there. We take then our show Dogen Sunday.

Mike: You can take, you can edit that part off.

Robert: No.

Mike: Okay. I have some subjects to talk about, and people suggested some. Roman suggested three subjects. One is an explanation of Genjo Koan, which is one of Master Dogen's essays in the Shobogenzo.

The second is how to study Dogen's writings, without being overwhelmed by words and ideas. The third one is, how did Buddhism help me in the most difficult situations in life? So that's three, and then Robert suggested some subjects. For instance, meaning of prajñā. And whether prajñā is something we contact inside ourselves, or something outside ourselves. And the relationship between spiritual things and what I'm teaching. There's some things to discuss over the next couple of days. I'm wondering which is best to start. Maybe I start with the second one. How to study Dogen's writings or Buddhist writings without being overwhelmed by words and ideas. So let's start there.

In the modern world, we have a tendency to prefer ideas to what is in front of us. So it's sometimes difficult to separate the ideas in our heads and where we actually are now. So we, in English, we say we become carried away.

Roman: Is it the same, similar expression?

Mike: Yes, yes. And we're often carried away. And don't notice where we are.

And Buddhist ideas can also carry us away. Especially, some Buddhist writings make us feel very, very optimistic. Typically, through the hundreds of years since Buddhism started, there have been many writings which suggest there is a better place or a better life than this one. In addition, Christianity also has the same belief. There is a better place than this one.

And we can make efforts in this life to reach this better life, or this better state. In Christianity, they explain it by saying that we will become one with God. In ancient India, the Brahmin, what's the Brahmin religion called?

Participant: Brahmanism.

Mike: Brahmanism. Brahmanism suggested that we could become one with Brahman. Or that inside we had a small somebody called Atman. And in the universe there was a large being called Atman. And we could make our small atman one with the larger atman. So this theme, to make ourselves one with the perfect being, or to make ourselves into a perfect state, is very common idea in world religions.

And Buddhism was no exception. So the ancient Buddhists used a word to describe this perfect state. The perfect place they called Nirvana, and the state of reaching Nirvana, they called in Japanese satori. Or in English, enlightenment.

So this theme is through all Buddhist writings. And in Dogen's writings too, we can, if we look for that meaning, we can sometimes find it. And we can dream of a better place, a better state, than our miserable lives, with problems all the time. However, Dogen, in his writings, insisted that this world is the only real world.

This state is the only real state. This place is the only real place. This time is the only real time. So there's nothing to attain, in the sense of getting somewhere else. So with Dogen, we have this strange explanation that we are making effort to get where we already are. When we study Dogen's writings, because they were written in Japanese and Chinese eight hundred years ago, we have to find a meaning for ourselves. The original language is too far away from our own language, to get some clear, unambiguous understanding.

So when we read or study the Shobogenzo, the question is, how should we interpret the meaning? So we can think about the meaning and use our brain to guess or to infer what it means. That is, we refer to ourself. Or we can ask somebody who we think knows what the meaning is. So we find the meaning from outside ourselves. Or we can do both. But there's one very important thing in finding the meaning, and it's quite difficult, because of the way that society teaches us things. Almost all our education is learning information which is given to us by outside people. So we can call it received knowledge. Received understanding.

So nobody at school says to you, please think about this and find the meaning yourself. Of course, teachers use rational explanation, so that we can understand the mechanism. But studying Dogen's writings is a little different. Because Dogen is writing about this place, this state, this time, this experience, we need to interpret it based on this place, this time, this person, this state, in order to get the meaning. Many, many people read Buddhist literature, and they interpret it based on something else which they read, or something which they heard.

So, for instance, in Master Dogen's writings, he sometimes says, all the gods in heaven will help us. So some people read this, and they think, so it must, Dogen is talking about gods in heaven. So I must believe in gods in heaven. Or Dogen writes about very peaceful supreme state. So we think, ah yes, there is a peaceful supreme state which I don't, I didn't know about, which I have to find.

But Dogen writes many times in the Shobogenzo that we should study things in experience. Actually, in Japanese, it's one phrase, study experience. Two Japanese characters: study, experience. And we are not used to study experience, because usually study means using our brain, reading or listening or receiving from outside, and experience usually means something which happens in our life. So study experience, sounds a little strange. But what Dogen is saying is, in order to understand his writings and Buddhism, we need to interpret what we are reading based on our own real experience in this world, in this state, at this time, in this place. But we can't help thinking: he's talking about something better than I am. He's talking about Buddha, and Buddha, I'm not a Buddha.

He's talking about the supreme state. I haven't had supreme state. And so we try to understand his writings based on an idea. Something that is not here. And we, we didn't experience. If we do that, then we make Dogen's writings into spiritual writings. But they're not spiritual writing. Sometimes they're poetic. But they're always realistic. If we interpret his writings based on our own real experience here and now, we have to look at ourselves and think, what can he mean about something I experienced? He says zazen is the gate to peaceful happiness.

I don't feel peaceful or happy. Do I feel peaceful or happy? Did I feel peaceful or happy? What does peaceful and happy mean? This is study in experience. But if we study in a different spiritual way, we think, if I practice more, then I will become peaceful and happy. And maybe if I do sesshin, I can become peaceful and happy quicker. And so on. And if we interpret his writings like this, we are always searching for something. But he says many times, what we are searching for is in front of us. Unfortunately, what is in front of most of us is a television screen. Or a phone screen. Or a social screen. We interpret the world based on society. Based on the teachings we received about living in our society. Living in our culture. We have to find a way past the screen.

So finding a way past the screen. Finding a way past the television. Finding a way past the books. Into this world here and now. It's a Buddhist effort. It's a very, very difficult effort. But very important effort. Dogen calls it the one great task. So, if you want to study the Shobogenzo, of course, it's not written in Slovak yet. Even translated into English, it's very, very difficult. So how to study what Dogen is writing about is a big problem. I don't know what the solution is. My solution, accidentally, was to study in Japan with a Japanese teacher who studied for many years. And very slowly to discover the real meaning of what Dogen is talking about. So there are not so many people who did this. But if you want to study what Dogen wrote, it's much quicker if you study with somebody who studied already, and who interpreted the meaning not based on some idea, not based on some beautiful state to attain, but based on their own real experience.

That's not so easy. But fortunately, I'm talking to you now. And what I'm saying to you is based on what Dogen wrote. So if you like to study the original writings of Dogen, it's a big task. If you don't want to do that, you can study with somebody who did it already, standing on their shoulders. But we shouldn't forget that Dogen is not writing about somewhere else. He's writing about how to live. And he lived in the 13th century. And we're living in 21st century.

So maybe we can hear some of his important ideas from somebody who studied them, our own experience. And learn to live. If we hear one or two important principles, for instance, that I talked about last night in Banský Studenec, we can use those principles to examine our life. That may be the best we can do. So, for instance, the two principles I talked about yesterday. There is always a result of every action. Everything we do has a result, without any exception. So, our behaviour is very important. I'm not saying we need to be good. I'm saying something different. Our behaviour is very important. The only place where we can behave or act is now. When we act now, we need to be here and now to act fully. You can see many people walking along the street, looking at their phones, bumping into other people. You can see people in the cars talking on the phone.

From the Buddhist point of view, all these things are incomplete action. Buddhism recommends that we act completely. Not half and half. Not half in our brain and half in the reality. That's quite difficult. The modern world teaches us to multitask. Doing several things at the same time. And we seem to be very good at it. And maybe sometimes we have to do it. But we can remember that the Buddhist teachings say that if we behave wholly, if we act wholly, the experience is somehow more whole. And that whole experience is different to partial experience. And again, I come back to sport. Because sport and physical activity in the modern world is very important and very central. But we can expand to talk about music or art or... The quality of whole experience is different to the quality of partial experience. In art, in music, in sport, in life.

So this is what you can find by reading Dogen. But you can find it without reading Dogen, because I just told you.

Roman: Master Dogen and most Buddhist teachers, or maybe all Buddhist teachers, are often critical of people as such, or critical of their disciples: you should do this, you shouldn't do that. Or how, because you say we should try to be in the present moment and not in the past or future, so how critical should we be to ourselves, for example about past mistakes, or I'm not doing enough effort, I'm too lazy? Should we just ignore our mistakes, or should we somehow reflect on the mistakes we make? Because if we reflect, we are not at the present moment.

Mike: I didn't mean to say we should be in the present moment.

Roman: Can I translate this?

Mike: Yeah.

Roman: I just wanted to ask whether we know that all Buddhist teachers and masters are often critical about people in general, or are they critical about specific people?

Mike: I didn't say we should be in the present moment. I didn't mean to say we should be in the present moment. What I meant to say was, Buddhism teaches that to be in the present moment is being in reality, is being whole, is being awake, is being a Buddha. Which means awake. And when we are in the present moment, the nature of our behaviour, the nature, the quality of our action is different. We can experience this. We can notice. And as a whole society, as a whole civilization, we can slowly discover this.

Boris: Can I give a comment?

Mike: Yes.

Boris: My experience as doctor is that if we don't act fully and wholly, it start disease. Somehow now I see, next to my ambulance, it's psychiatric, and I started working on that place 12 years ago, and many people come to this practice. It is nearby me, and with time more and more. And second is problem with food. Many people have food problems to digest.

Mike: Yes.

Boris: They think they are allergic or they are somehow, it's not something not working.

Roman: Yes.

Boris: But I think that the intestine is

Roman: Yes.

Boris: combined with thinking because... It digest your ideas or your thinking, and because we are full of many ideas, and this is not function,

Roman: Yeah.

Boris: and so on.

Roman: Yeah.

Boris: Then meditation or zazen, or how to call it, it's, I think, a medical product.

Mike: Okay.

Boris: Yeah. Healing practices.

Roman: Yes,

Boris (Slovak): That I have the experience that when a person does not act completely and fully in the situation, which means that he is in several places at once, as Mike described it, then it influences the emergence of various illnesses.

For 12 years I have been working in one place where there is a psychiatrist, and gradually more and more people gather in front of his waiting room, and I see that people are in fact not able to digest what the surrounding world brings them. And the second thing is, for example, that terribly many illnesses or difficulties with digestion keep increasing. People think it is some kind of allergy, for example, that comes upon them, but I perceive it as, when we cannot digest some thoughts, something that is flowing at us, terribly many ideas at once, we cannot divide ourselves, we cannot choose, then in fact we simply cannot digest either. Because digestion is the same process as when we are able to digest some thoughts.

Mike: So slowly, the world is discovering these kinds of simple facts. If we are watching the film while we're eating supper. Our brain is doing one thing, our mouth is doing another thing. Our intestine is confused. However, it's very difficult in the modern world to live this kind of dream, always in the present moment. We're always eating when we're eating. Only talking when we're talking. Only listening when we're listening. We listen for two seconds and ten seconds we... It's happening now.

So we have to notice the real situation. And we have to avoid, or we have to solve the problem.

Is Buddhism telling us to be perfect? What is perfect? I can understand about a complete action. I can understand about being in the present moment. I can understand the benefit. But I can't do it. So there must be some kind of progress. We get better and better. So strangely, this is a kind of contradiction. Or two things which are opposite, sitting beside each other.

If we pursue the ideal of perfect Buddhism, we will never find it, because always in our head, in our mind, we put together the perfect picture. But life is not perfect, in the same way that our ideas are perfect. So when Dogen writes about perfect, does he mean the perfect picture I have in my mind? Always acting perfectly. Always in the present? Or does he mean this chaotic mess in front of me? And he always means this chaotic mess in front of me. That is the meaning of perfect. Not the idea of perfect in our mind.

So in the end we have to throw away words. [unclear, 00:46:22–00:46:36] Always we are gradually building up a perfect picture. Then we have to throw it away and face reality. Again and again and again and again. And Dogen writes, all our mistakes lead us to the truth. So in a strange way, although his writings sound very beautiful sometimes, he's always pointing us back to this chaotic mess, full of problems, difficulties. It should be different. That's it. That's where we are. That's reality. That's life. That's all there is. That's our lot. We have to get on with it. And in a strange way, it's perfect. They're not perfect in the sense. Perfect, because coffee cup standing on the floor, perfect. Spoon is perfectly in the cup. Tip the cup and the coffee goes into your throat. Put it down. Put it down. It stops. Everything is perfect. Everything works perfectly. Nothing is out of balance. We sit on a chair, and the chair keeps us up.

The sun comes out and we feel the warmth. We move into the shade and it's cool. This is the meaning of perfect. So when we notice that the world is like a bright pearl, perfect as it is, we feel some kind of peaceful feeling. Not this peaceful feeling we imagine: no argument, no problem. Yes. Not that one. Where is it? Here. When is it? Now.

Roman: The time went over.

Mike: Perfect.