Buddhist State as Semi-Permeable Membrane
Mike: a flexible mind that receives and gives; zazen can bring it, but it took him more than twenty years
Michael Eido Luetchford
September 2015 — Banský Studenec, Talk 3.
Venue: Banský Studenec.
Michael Eido Luetchford · September 2015 — Banský Studenec, Talk 3
Source: video transcript.
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Mike uses the picture of a semi-permeable membrane to describe the Buddhist state: a membrane expands when the pressure inside is higher than outside and contracts when it is lower, but a semi-permeable membrane lets the pressure pass through, so it does not need to move. He says that with “I am important” pressure builds up inside and our body becomes bigger, while with “I am not important” it shrinks, and that the aim of the Buddhist state is that we become a semi-permeable membrane, and then we are very flexible. He tells how Dogen, asked by the monks what he had got in China, answered that he got flexible mind, which Mike describes as the situation where we can accept and give, receive and give flexibly.
Mike says that Dogen describes the state in zazen as a receiving, giving state, like one word: jijuyo zanmai in Japanese, in which zanmai, the Sanskrit samadhi, means collecting ourselves together or, as Mike likes to say, making whole. He adds that if Dogen had known about fluids, maybe he would have said that he got a semi-permeable membrane. Mike says that his own character keeps things inside while the characters of some people push back, but if we practise zazen we can become balanced, like a semi-permeable membrane, and avoid the extremes. He says that the way to this balance takes between ten and twenty years, and for him it took more than twenty, and to the idea that practice changes character he answers: I didn't change my character, but my character changed. Asked by Boris what mattered most in those years, he names three people, his teacher, his wife Yoko and his partner Lisa, and says that his two partners push back when he does one thing and pull out when he does another, which makes him flexible, very slowly. Honesty belongs to the same picture: when we are honest we tell and listen without lies, to ourselves and to others if they ask, and many people lie to themselves without noticing. Boris mentions a saying that a teacher is a mirror for the disciple, another participant adds that other people serve as mirrors too, and Mike agrees that everything can be a mirror.
In the discussion Robert says that it is much easier for him to sit in a group at a sesshin than alone at home, and Mike agrees that it is hard, but says that wanting to stop is different from stopping. Mike's idea for Dogen Sangha is many small groups of two or three people, as his students in England made their own groups because they find it hard to practise alone. Asked why he wants to stop, Robert says that sitting is sometimes unpleasant, and another participant describes that when they don't feel like sitting they tell themselves they will give it five minutes and then often stay much longer. Mike says that because we cannot see the result of our effort in zazen, it seems that there must be some kind of belief, which he thinks is a different kind of belief to religion, although it might be similar. Robert objects that in Buddhism, unlike religion, we should know and not just believe, Mike asks how we can know the future, and Boris asks whether it could be checked on small things. Mike calls this exchange a very good point and says that zazen doesn't seem to do anything except take our time and sometimes be painful, so there is some kind of belief or trust. The recording ends as Robert asks what the correct motivation is, since Tomáš quotes Sawaki saying that zazen is good for nothing.
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Editorial note: This transcript of a spoken talk has been lightly edited to read well as written text, keeping the speaker’s voice and meaning; the wording was adjusted with great care. We recommend watching the original video recording too.
Boris: What is this in Czech?
Mike: Can you understand? Do you know what the membrane is? Here is a membrane. Here is inside. Here is outside.
If pressure — what's pressure? — if pressure inside is more than pressure outside, the membrane expands. If pressure inside is less than pressure outside, the membrane contracts. But there is one special kind of membrane called semi—
Boris: Permeable?
Mike: Semi-permeable. In the semi-permeable membrane, pressure can pass through. So the membrane doesn't need to move. This is my own thinking about the membrane. Human being. I. Them or you. I am important. The pressure builds up inside. Our body becomes bigger. In this case, I am not important. So, I'm shrinking. So I think it's a very nice picture of our psychological state. Inside and outside are different. Sometimes we feel very confident. Sometimes we feel very unconfident. But the aim of the Buddhist state is this state. We become a semi-permeable membrane. When we become a semi-permeable membrane, we're very flexible. Of course, a semi-permeable membrane moves a little. But it doesn't do this or this.
When Dogen came back from China to Japan, the monks in the temple he returned to said, What did you get in China? He said, I got flexible mind. He didn't say I. In Japanese there is no I. Flexible mind. Flexible mind is the situation where we can accept and give, receive and give flexibly. Receive, but wrong way round. Give. Received that way, sorry, give it that way.
Dogen says the state in zazen is a receiving, giving state. He says, receive, give. Like one word.
Roman: What is the word in Japanese?
Mike: I'm trying to remember. Jijuyo zanmai. Ji means self. Ju means receiving. Yo means giving. Zanmai means — it sounds Sanskrit — samadhi. Samadhi, Sanskrit word, means zazen for Dogen. There are other meanings, and other scholars use different meanings. Sam means together. Adi means to collect. So samadhi, zanmai means to collect ourselves together, put ourselves together. So I like to say making whole.
So if Dogen had known about fluids, maybe he would have said, I got semi-permeable membrane. My personal character, for some reason, is like this. So I'm keeping inside, keeping inside the membrane. Some people's character is like this, then they push back. So everybody has their own character. But if we practise zazen, we can become balanced, like a semi-permeable membrane. We can accept, and we can receive and give ourselves. Nice. And then we avoid this and this. What do you think? So from here to here takes between ten and twenty years. In my case. For Dogen maybe it took ten years. For me it took more than twenty years. So then you say that you can change your character by practising that. Well, I didn't change my character, but my character changed. Yes, but I didn't change it. I didn't change it, and they didn't change it, but it changed.
Boris: Last time you said that it's getting rid of the things. What was the most important for you in these twenty years?
Mike: Three people. My teacher. My wife, Yoko. And my partner, Lisa. So my teacher explained this to me in a different way, and my two partners, when I do this they push back, when I do this they pull out. So they make me flexible, very, very slowly. Come on, come on. No, go back. No, no. Come on. For me, yeah.
So I think a semi-permeable membrane is a very nice picture where we can slowly receive and use, receive and give ourselves. This is the meaning of honest, or sincere. When we are honest, we tell, we listen, without any lies. So we say exactly how it is for us.
Boris: And to ourselves.
Mike: To ourselves and to others, if they ask.
Boris: I think it's much more important to ourselves not to lie in our own pocket.
Mike: Yes. Many people lie to themselves. But they don't notice.
Boris: There is a saying that the teacher or master is a mirror for the disciple. Can be useful. Somehow you become... not many liars.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. Hopefully.
Participant: Other people also serve as mirrors for us.
Mike: Yes. Everybody. Everything can be a mirror. Yes, it's true.
Robert: I see benefit in the settings of sesshin and of sitting together. For me it's much easier to sit in a group, but it's very hard for me to sit at home, without these settings.
Mike: Yes, and for me too. It's hard. If you are an athlete and you train on your own every day, it's hard. If you train with other people, it becomes something shared. If it's too hard, then you will stop. If it's very hard, you want to stop. Wanting to stop is different from stopping.
Robert: Yeah, I want to stop...
Mike: You can stop if you want.
Robert: ...during zazen, but I'm not in group, you know. It's like support.
Mike: Yes, it's hard. So my idea is, for Dogen Sangha, many small groups, two people, three people, you can meet together. And the reason why my students in England made their own groups is because they find it hard.
Roman: They find it hard to practise alone.
Mike: Yeah. Everybody. Me too.
Participant: Can I ask why? Or do you know why you want to stop?
Robert: Sometimes it's unpleasant. During sitting.
Mike: Yes. The posture?
Robert: Both this and that. Sometimes more this, sometimes more that.
Roman: Can you sit for five minutes?
Robert: Yeah.
Roman: So sit five minutes.
Participant: Usually, when I don't feel like sitting, I persuade myself that there is some reason why I can't sit. So I make myself not think about it, I sit down, maybe I just tell myself, I'll give it five minutes. And then I usually spend much longer there, because then I don't feel like getting up again.
Mike: But Robert made a good point to me earlier, because we can't see the result of our effort in zazen, it seems like it must be some kind of belief. Somehow we have to believe. It's true. But I think it is a different kind of belief to religion. It might be similar.
Robert: What is different?
Mike: Yes, what is different? Because in religion, belief is in something that doesn't exist, or something external, that we believe that something away from us will do something to us.
Robert: But they believe that it exists, and here also we need to trust that something exists.
Mike: Yes.
Robert: But I think in Buddhism, in contrast to religion, we should know and not just believe.
Mike: But how can we know? Robert, how can we know the future?
Robert: Not the future, but...
Mike: You should be sure there is some benefit.
Robert: We should try to know, not to believe.
Mike: Good point.
Boris: Robo, you can't check it? On some small thing, a minor one? Can you check it with a small detail, whether it works? Have you ever experienced something like that?
Robert: I'm not so sure.
Mike: I think it's a very good point, because zazen doesn't seem to do anything except take our time and sometimes be painful. So, there's some kind of belief or trust.
Robert: So what's the correct motivation to do? Because, for example, you asked Tomáš, and I think it's not only the problem of the pain. For me it's also much easier to sit with a group, but I think also the question of the motivation. I think he, or at least for me, it's very similar. Maybe not so sure about the motivation, or I don't see the motivation. What I wanted to say is that, as Tomáš said, it's hard for him to sit alone and it's better for him to sit in a group, and I have it similarly. And I think it's not only the problem of the pain, but maybe also that clarity is missing in the motivation, what the motivation is.
Robert: Because, for example, Tomáš is very quick to quote Sawaki, who said, zazen is good for nothing. There is nothing to gain, and this is often said, there is nothing to gain from zazen, and so on, just sit. So what's the correct motivation, or what do we get from that, or what's the benefit?
Participant: I don't know.
Robert: What is the right motivation, what do we actually get from zazen, or why should we do zazen? If it's like some carrot, twenty years in the future, and we need to believe that in twenty years there will be some benefit, or... What is it?