The Map in Our Head
Mike: we live by a picture of our life, but our actions take us along a different, real path
Michael Eido Luetchford
May 2012 — Nová Dedinka, Talk 1.
Venue: Nová Dedinka, Slovakia.
Michael Eido Luetchford · May 2012 — Nová Dedinka, Talk 1
Source: audio transcript.
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Audio
20120526-den-zazenu-NovaDedinka-1.mp4 in the Google Drive folder
What the talk says (short overview) — About these overviews
Mike recalls, without being sure of the exact words, that Dogen said we should learn the truth from anybody or anything that knows it, and he says that he himself learned important things from mountains. Starting from the fourth noble truth, the truth of the path (marga satya), he gives his own explanation: when we walk in the mountains we look at a map and imagine the place we are going to, but that place exists in our mind, and the path we actually walk turns out to be different from the picture we held. He and Boris once walked toward a hut they could not see, and when they looked over the pass it was thousands of meters down a very steep way, so that he wondered whether they would ever get there. In ordinary life, Mike says, we also make a map in our head and become worried when the real path differs from it, and he suggests that instead of saying that we live our life, we can say that our life is living us, because our feet and our actions take us forward. He adds that Dogen, in his writings, says that action is more important than thinking, and that although thinking is important, our life is created by our action.
In the discussion, one participant says that part of our plans do work and part go the other way, another that we need a plan but that the intention to make the next step matters most, and Mike agrees that intention is closer to action, adding that his own steps are often different from his plan and that this is his experience, which may not be everyone's. He tells how he came to leave Japan: he says that he did not make that decision, because while waiting for a flight he saw many Japanese people and thought that he had already left Japan, and it was the decision that made him. Mike also says that society needs stability and security, so we make a shared picture of life and live in it, which is important, but that Buddhist philosophy says that underneath the picture our life is only now. When the picture stops making us happy, as with a rich person who finds that he is not happy, we may start looking underneath it, which is what Mike himself needed to do, and he says that Dogen's dropping off of body and mind means deconstructing our picture.
Asked whether truth and happiness are the same, he answers maybe and says that truth is not abstract but simply life itself working in a certain way, as a cat, a dog and a tree know it, while human beings are so good at imagining that they create abstract terminology and problems for themselves. He gives examples of how a picture hides what is in front of us, such as seeing a person from Slovakia as a communist, a Russian as a Russian or a woman as a sexual image, and says that seeing reality is simple but difficult to do. Participants answer that past experience, such as a child's burned hand or a dog bite, protects us and creates habitual patterns that we need, and Mike agrees but says that even the thought that a picture is only a picture with reality underneath is another picture, and that patterns made in childhood can outlive their use. Finally, when a participant brings up the fourth truth and the eightfold path as things we should do, Mike says that the Four Noble Truths only state truths and nowhere say that we should do something, and he adds that reality is good and bad mixed together, unlike the religions in which good has to win a battle against evil.
Complete English transcript — About transcripts
Editorial note: This transcript of a spoken talk has been lightly edited to read well as written text, keeping the speaker’s voice and meaning; the wording was adjusted with great care. We recommend listening to the original audio recording too.
Okay. Today I want to talk about the Tatras. Not exactly. I'll give you an explanation of the reason I want to talk about the Tatras. Dogen, who was a 13th century monk that we study, wrote in his Shobogenzo that we should learn the truth from...
That's fine. We should learn the truth from anybody or anything. Or if we find anybody or anything which knows the truth, we should learn from them. And even if it's a dog or a child, or a tree, or a stone. He didn't say dog or child. I can't remember it exactly. But anyway, it's an interesting statement. Usually we think we should learn from a teacher. And we usually think a teacher is a human being who knows more than we do. Or is better than we are?
Or is higher than we are. Or something like that. But in Dogen's thinking, we can learn from anything or anybody which knows the truth. And I remembered when I used to do a lot of mountaineering when I was young. I learned many things from mountains. And I remembered again when we were walking in the Tatras. Several important things I learned from mountains and never forget. So I'd like to tell you about them. In ancient Buddhism, there are four noble truths. And the fourth noble truth is the truth of the path.
Or the truth of the way, I don't know. Yes. And in Sanskrit, this is marga satya. Marga is path and satya is truth. And there is an explanation in Buddhism about the truth of the path. And I would like to give my own explanation, which is a little different.
When we're walking in the mountains along a path which is unknown, we usually use a map. So we look at the map and imagine in our mind the place we're going to. And then we start walking towards the place we're going to. And the place we're going to doesn't exist in front of us. It exists in our mind. Of course, if we've been there before, we know that it's real. So we start walking. But in our mind we have a final place we're going to.
But at every moment, we are just walking forward along the path. And if we keep walking forward along the path, we find that the path is different to what we held in our mind. So, for instance, when I was walking with Boris in the Tatras, we walked towards a hut.
But we couldn't see the hut. But we believed the hut was at the end of the path. So we walked towards the hut, step by step. And everything was fine. But we reached a high point on a saddle. And we thought the hut would be quite near. And maybe not such a difficult path. But when we looked over the pass, the hut was long, thousands of meters down. And the way down looked very, very steep. And impossible to see clearly.
So we started going down the path, and it became steeper, and then not so steep, and then steeper, and so on. And I myself wondered if we would ever get to the hut. So this kind of experience is very, very important to notice in our normal life. Of course, in our normal life, we're not walking in the mountains every day. But we're always imagining our life. We make a map in our head. And we make a place we're going to. And we are thinking about how we should live and move towards our aim.
But actually walking towards our aim is completely different to the picture in our head. So sometimes we become very worried or anxious. Maybe this is the wrong path. Maybe the path is too difficult. Maybe we never get to the hut. So I always remember this truth which I learned from the mountains. And this is it. Actually, we don't know where we're going. We make an image in our head of where we're going. And we hope we are moving towards that place. But we never know. And sometimes, when we reach the place, it's completely different to our imagination.
So people usually think that they should think about their life in their head, and then make a plan, and then walk towards their goal, or live their life towards their goal. It's normal. This is the way human beings are living. But I would like to suggest a different way to think about it. Usually we say, we are living our life. But I would like to say, our life is living us. So we're walking along a path towards the goal which is in our mind.
And we don't know where we're going. But our feet are taking us forward. Our actions are taking us forward. So at every moment we're making some action. And moment by moment, we make an action. And we move along the path. And then we find we are somewhere which is different to the place in our mind. So, for me, this is a kind of truth. So usually I'm thinking about where I'm going, where my life is going, making a plan. But sometimes I realise my life is going a different way. Oh, my life is taking me. So I have to follow my feet.
Or follow my actions. And this is the experience for me in the mountains. I did lots of mountaineering when I was very young. And this is one truth I learned. And by coincidence, Pavel said to me this morning, I feel my life is leading me along. And I think this is true. Our lives are leading us along. I don't know where we're going. Do you know where you're going? Does anybody know where we're going? Of course, I don't mean we're blind. I mean, in our mind we have a picture. But the real path we are taking is different.
The real path we are taking is from our action, not from our mind. So Dogen, in his writings, says that action is more important than thinking. Of course, thinking is important. But our life is created by our action. This is an important thing. So that's what I have to say, as I remember it. So please discuss, ask questions, or sit happily. Maybe you don't agree, so that's fine. This is only my experience.
Boris: I agree. And I have heard a quotation of John Lennon, and he said, Life is that time in between our planning.
Mike: Yes, yes.
Boris: Yes. What happens to us while we are
Mike: planning. Yes, that's right. While
Boris: we are planning.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: So us.
Mike: Yes. While we are worrying about the future,
Boris: Ours.
Mike: our life is happening now.
Boris: Yeah, it— yes,
Mike: That's true. And if we concentrate too much on planning, we miss our life. Yeah, we miss it. It's here. And in the mountains, if we concentrate on getting here to the hut, we miss where we are walking, the flowers and rocks and sun and so on.
Boris: Definitely.
Mike: Yeah. So, just, I remembered in the Tatras, my life is leading me. Christians say that God is leading them. So I guess Christian people feel there's some spiritual person who is leading them along the path. Not their path, but God's path.
Boris: Sorry. So maybe I can say what I said yesterday, that I'm a witness to my life. Yes. I can say I'm a witness to God.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: God is a witness to what I'm doing here.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: You know, just...
Mike: Yes.
Robert: Pavel said that it could be applied to what he said yesterday, that when life leads him, then you lead God, right? He said.
Boris: No, I meant it in the sense that sometimes it seems to me that I am like a witness of my life, that I simply observe what is happening, like I am a bit detached and I watch what is happening. And that it could also be applied to what was said before, right, that God looks down on the earth and is a witness to what is happening, but conversely that I am a witness to the fact that God here…
Mike: He just translated exactly. Of course, right? Human life in society is not like that. We need to know what is going to happen, and we need to know where we're going. And we need to have stability. And security. And everybody needs this. So if we don't know where we're going, it's insecure. So we make a picture. This is a human thing. We make a picture of our life, and then we live in the picture. And this is important, otherwise society can't function.
But just sometimes, if life becomes changing or difficult, we notice, ah, it's not like that really.
Robert: But part of the plans are always working, although it's not one side or the other side. Part of the plans are going completely the other way.
Roman: Yeah.
Robert: But it's somewhere in the middle.
Pavel: Yes. But I think that having a plan, or having something planned in the future, somewhere far, is,
Robert: Yes.
Pavel: well, we need it, of course. But I think that what you said, the most important is the intention to make a further step.
Mike: So just more connected with the action itself. Just having the intention to move. Yes. I think that intention is working. I wonder whether the plan itself.
Robert: So many times you reach your goal. Many times you set up a goal and don't reach it, and another time you set a goal and you reach it, almost exactly. Or...
Boris: This is the plan: when you come home, you decide today what to do in your life, where to live.
Robert: Okay. Just you make the decision. Can you change? I change them.
Mike: Yeah. This is my plan.
Robert: Yeah, plan, yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: But I agree with Robert that it's both working.
Mike: Well, together.
Boris: Without this planning, we see that our planning, most people don't see. But if we see, then we are clearer. Maybe we go to another situation, yes, but we need to make the step.
Mike: We need, yes.
Boris: But, yeah, Robert, we need a planned step.
Mike: Yes. We need a step.
Boris: And a step.
Mike: Yes. But actually, for me, the step is not always the same as my plan. Even when I make a plan, my step is often different from my plan. I don't know why, but it's true. So then I find, oh, my plan is here, but oh, I'm going this way. Then I think, ah, so I changed my plan. This is me. Maybe you're different. If you're very, very, very focused, you say, I'm going to do this. And you do it, great, congratulations. And when you did it, it was exactly the same as you imagined. It's good.
But I didn't have that experience in my life, so it's always more vague. And often my plan, when I reach my goal in my plan, yes, of course, it's the same.
Boris: But the biggest decision, if you wanted not to stay in Japan with your [inaudible], you came back to England. It was a big decision to do it, a step, not to go to Japan and stay in England.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: It's clear that you were focused to do this.
Mike: You imagined.
Boris: You? Me?
Mike: Yes, you imagined this is what I did, but it's not what I did.
Boris: You told me like this, maybe. This is the story that you told me. Of course, we tell a story.
Mike: So I told you I decided to come back to England and leave Japan, and I decided and I did it. That's what I say. This is what we say to each other. I decided to move to Bratislava. I decided to do this, and yes, I did it. This is our story, very important. But the truth is different, that's all, for me. So if I try to imagine every step when I came back to England, did I decide it, or did it decide me? Actually, I didn't make a decision. I tell you what happened.
I went to Harvard to study Sanskrit, and I was in Harvard for some months. And when I came back to Japan from Harvard, I was waiting to get on the aircraft to go to Japan, and there were many Japanese people, whom I hadn't seen for some months. And I looked at these people and I thought, Oh, I left Japan already. That decision, I don't know where it came from.
Robert: Yes, yes.
Mike: It made me. I didn't make it. It made me.
Robert: Yes.
Mike: So this is my experience. Of course, small decisions or other decisions we make. I'm going to the Tatras with Boris, then I come, yeah. But the experience was different. So, for instance, my suitcase, lots of warm clothes, but the weather is warm, so I didn't use the clothes. And I imagined, Oh, I can go very quickly. I'm very strong. Actually, you're carrying my rucksack, and I'm going, Oh. So everything was different. Of course, it's the same. I went there, but actually it was different. That's all.
Boris: But I think man doesn't have the capacity to imagine anything
Mike: That's right,
Boris: like this,
Mike: yes.
Boris: Because this is impossible.
Mike: It's impossible,
Robert: But
Mike: but we have very excellent imagination.
Boris: Yes, but all the details, and the consequences of actions and of emotions. I see a nice flower, then I see...
Mike: Yes.
Boris: and
Mike: Yes, it's beyond us.
Boris: Like...
Roman: Yes. Now I understand that aspect of what Boris says: you decided to do da-da-da-da, and you say, No, it's just what I said, and for a while it didn't make sense. And then you gave the example about it. And now I realize that I thought I decided to teach at the school where I teach, so that's why I teach there. Actually, when I came to speak to the headmaster, he decided that I would teach there. So without his decision, I could... you know, it's both. I cannot decide that I want to teach at university, okay, somewhere. The university has to be interested.
It's like mutual. You cannot just... I cannot go to the High Tatras without you, without you telling him, you know. So it's very complex like that.
Mike: I understand that it sounds a bit too detailed, but actually Buddhist philosophy is like this. And because everybody knows normal life, you know, we know we make friends, we get married, or we live with a partner, we have children, we have a job. Everybody knows this. Society works like this. But society is created by human beings, and we created a picture together which we share, a very, very strong picture, very powerful.
Sometimes that picture causes us pain and suffering, because society doesn't work 100 percent all the time for everybody. So Buddhist philosophy is saying underneath this picture is like this. It's a very strange way to talk. Underneath the picture, our life is only now. Then you can say, No, no, it's not now, because after lunch we have lunch and then we go back and...
Boris: It's more organic.
Mike: Yeah. But Buddhist philosophy is very strange because it says, No, no, under your picture, something very simple and bare, with no decoration, no painting. So this is what Buddhist philosophy is about. That's why it's so strange and sometimes sounds very complicated.
Roman: We tend to live in clichés, like this
Boris: Yes.
Roman: is a day of zazen.
Boris: Yes.
Roman: I have children. I don't have children. I have
Boris: Yes.
Roman: a job. I'm happy. I'm not happy. And we're like, well, I always notice myself, don't say that. I was like, no, that's not true.
Boris: I tend to— I do too.
Roman: You know, I tend to have these ideas. I don't want... another Friday evening or something. But it's not Friday evening. It's just now. I don't want to be here in this place. This is too noisy. I want to have children, and then what does it mean to have children? What is it actually, you know? So why should I worry about having or not having children? What is my reality? I don't know. Now, children. Sometimes I teach children, sometimes I don't.
Boris: Well, I think you can look at this, you know, from both points of view.
Participant: Yeah, of course.
Robert: Yes.
Boris: We can call this
Robert: Yes.
Boris: intellectual layer,
Robert: Yes.
Boris: maybe relative point of view.
Participant: Yes.
Boris: So you need to construct your life.
Participant: Yeah.
Boris: So both are part of the process. So you need to construct your life in the relative point of view, and then at some point you need to deconstruct to this kind of absolute point of view or underlying point of view.
Robert: But you don't have to be trapped. But... but something. Yeah.
Boris: So I don't think we can deny half of it.
Roman: Yeah, we live like that.
Boris: But I will be living in just now. I don't need to plan.
Roman: Yes.
Boris: I don't need to make an intention to get up from my bed in the morning. I don't need an intention to go to my work. Well, I don't need my work. I'm just living now.
Roman: But your situation, something deconstructed you.
Boris: Something happened to you, or something has deconstructed your life.
Pavel: No, no, I'm talking from my experience.
Boris: When you deconstruct your— it isn't deconstructed by yourself. You cannot deconstruct this.
Pavel: I think—
Boris: The situation, the action before and all this came back and deconstructed you.
Pavel: Yes.
Boris: Your big plans.
Pavel: Yes. Well, I can share my experience from what we do now, zazen and Zen Buddhism and whatever we call it. At the beginning, I started constructing my plans. So I'm going to find an enlightened teacher who is perfect. I want to be a perfect Zen practitioner. I want to be like those black-robed monks sitting in Japanese temples like rocks and they are perfect beings. I would like to be like these people. And it was my plan. So I was moving according to this plan, you know. I went ten years ago to Brussels to meet Nishijima, and this was actually the start of this process. But at some point I realized this is just bullshit. This is just a fairy tale or my personal drama or maybe comedy. A plan. And this is not what life is about. This is not what this action, I mean meditation, is about. I don't need anything. So at that point I started to deconstruct everything. So I realized that Mike is not an enlightened person. Sorry, Mike. Well, I think this is part of the problem.
Robert: You already did it?
Pavel: No, no, no. I realized that I don't need, you know... special clothes. I don't need to sit in a monastery for ten years. I don't need to... Well, it doesn't matter if I ring the bell three times or ten times, you know, these very small pieces that create the whole picture. So I constructed something in my head. Then I realized it, just in my head, and the process of deconstruction started by itself, actually. I don't know whether I did it or...
Mike: I think if you imagine somebody who thinks that if they are very rich, they will be happy. So they make great efforts through their life to become very rich. And then, when they are very rich, they realize they're not happy. Then, at that point, they have to start looking for the reason. So if you're happy in your life, then there is no problem. And if people are happy with their life and their picture, even if it's not true, even if it's not 100 percent real, no problem.
But in modern society, many people are not happy with their picture because, for instance, in Slovakia 20, 30, 40 years ago, the system was communism. So people, are they happy? If they're happy, why did it change? So change comes when we're not happy with our situation. At that point, if we want to, we can learn about Buddhism. And Buddhism will explain something. Ah, you see, it's only a picture. Under the picture, you thought money is making you happy. Underneath, I can explain to you happiness is only now.
And then the rich person will say, Oh, I see. I didn't know that. Happiness is only now? Oh, I can be happy now? Yes, you can be happy now. Oh, great. So some people like to solve their problem by looking underneath the picture, and they can find Buddhist philosophy. Some people don't want to. Some people don't need to. It's fine. But I needed to.
Yes, deconstruction. Dogen says, dropping off. So dropping off, he says, Drop off your body, drop off your mind. This is in very simple 13th century language. Drop off your body, drop off your mind means deconstruct your picture.
Boris: So happiness is the truth, and truth is the happiness?
Mike: Maybe, yes. The truth is... Very difficult to talk about,
Boris: Yeah.
Mike: but many things are true. There is no one special truth somewhere which we search for. The truth is simply that life itself is working in a certain way. So actually, the word truth, I don't know if in Czech or Slovak it's
Robert: pravda.
Mike: Same.
Robert: Pravda.
Mike: The same. Abstract.
Boris: Same. Yeah.
Mike: So when you hear pravda, do you think something abstract in your head?
Roman: Yeah.
Boris: And there is also a newspaper, but...
Mike: But in Buddhism, truth is something real. So actually, truth is not the right word, and maybe reality is a better word, or the real situation, or life itself, or I don't know what word to say.
Boris: I think it is...
Mike: Things as it is.
Boris: Because I wonder whether reality can be happy.
Mike: It can be severe. Can be happy. Yes, but happiness comes, then happiness goes.
Boris: Yeah.
Mike: It's like a wisdom.
Boris: Just the quality of reality.
Mike: I guess so.
Boris: It's changing.
Mike: It's too complicated for me. My head hurts.
Boris: It's like truth could be like wisdom or knowledge, or the same, like...
Mike: Not in the mind. So truth is not abstract.
Boris: That's true.
Mike: A cat knows the truth, a dog knows the truth, trees know the truth. When the wind blows, the tree bends. When the wind stops, the tree stops. That's the truth, yeah. But the human beings are very excellent, so we create an abstract terminology. Yeah. And we are very excellent beings, but at the same time we are very stupid, because we make ourselves problems, and then we have to solve them.
Boris: It's also part of the truth.
Mike: Yes, yes, you're right.
Boris: Problem.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: We are looking for problems.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: It's against now.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: Medicine for your stupidity.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: Yes, romance is very nice, thinking about having children, not having children. Why should
Robert: Yeah.
Boris: I think about this? It's like...
Mike: But we do.
Boris: You do.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: Maybe it's a problem, it's not a problem, but it's your problem. It's not when we all have a job. Of course not. Of course people have
Pavel: abstract problems. Sometimes it just happens, you know, you wake up in the morning and your partner says, Okay, I'm pregnant today. It's your problem. It still doesn't mean anything. It's just an idea. But it's a reality too. But how to experience the reality of pregnancy if you are a man
Boris: again?
Pavel: Yeah. A while ago I smelled something in the kitchen. I was like... And it was it, you know. I smelled the truth. But I wanted to call it. I said, like, What is it? What is it? Oh, garlic. But, you know, the difference between when I experienced it, I didn't know what it was, and then garlic. Garlic is just a name. And I'm not even sure if it's garlic.
Boris: Maybe it's a big completely true. This is complete.
Mike: So if you read in koan stories, in any Buddhist book, you can see very simple koan stories, like the student asked the teacher, What is the truth of Buddhism? And the teacher said, Drink up your tea, or Wash up your bowl, or Go to bed. So people think, Oh, this is a very, very special koan. I have to think. But the meaning is, the truth is simple and direct and in front of us. But if we create a very powerful picture, we can't see reality in front of us.
So, for instance, if I think people from Slovakia used to be communist, I think they must be very strange, suspicious people. I look at Robert. I don't see Robert. I see a picture.
Pavel: God, look at this.
Mike: Communist.
Pavel: Secret service.
Mike: You know?
Pavel: Yes, I'm recording all of this and it will be processed.
Mike: I have a lawyer.
Robert: Doesn't help you.
Boris: No.
Mike: But you see what I mean. Or, you know, I don't like Russians. So you meet a Russian person and you don't see the person. You see, I don't like Russians in front, or whatever. Or, you know, I like, very often men, I like women who are blonde or redhead or, you know, big breasts or small breasts, and then you don't see the person. You see the sexual image, and this is a problem for men. But
Boris: I think it can't be stopped. It comes automatically.
Mike: Yes. Yes, but you're leaning the hard way.
Boris: Somehow. Yes, maybe not so much like before.
Mike: Yes. But I'm just, you know, just a picture. We learn the picture. Yes. And then the picture is in front of reality. So to see reality is simple, but difficult to do.
Pavel: But sometimes, like when some, let's say, gypsy, we have gypsies here.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: And if he asks money, I
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: know he's asking money for some alcohol or
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: something like this.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: So the picture I see is telling me not to give him money.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: Because
Boris: there's more probability that he will spend it on this.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: So I don't give money. But that's not the reality. But it's saving my money.
Mike: So,
Boris: I would say it's more real what I see and what I hear, or what can I do with my sense,
Mike: Yes.
Boris: register, or it's more real that I, what I think from the past. It maybe saved my life, my
Mike: Yes.
Boris: experience from the past.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: But it's making the picture.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: But it's helping me. Sometimes it's a problem.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: But sometimes it solves the problem.
Mike: Yes, it's true.
Boris: So what's more real, what I see now or what previous experience?
Mike: We have a tendency. We want to... you want to know which is more real.
Pavel: Yeah.
Mike: I don't know.
Pavel: Yeah.
Mike: It's your reality, okay? So we want to fix, you know. So you said if you practice zazen, you become enlightened. So how many years? So I don't know. Or, you know, sometimes my picture is helping me. Yes, sure. What is real? I don't know. Real is real. But we know reality underneath. So sometimes imagination helps us.
Pavel: Like when once I see the dog, I don't know, and I go to him and give him a hand,
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: and he bites me.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: So I would know that I fear dogs.
Mike: Yeah.
Pavel: So it will help. But another dog doesn't have to bite me.
Mike: Yes. But if you see the dog like you see a human being, do you go over to a human being and stroke? Not usually. So respect the dog, you know. Some dogs will come up to you. If it doesn't come up to you, then maybe it wants to stay over there.
Boris: I'm just trying to say that I cannot go to
Pavel: any situation clearly, like it's new something, like many Buddhist or
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: esoteric books are written.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: Because I have a previous experience that
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: it's telling me to do this, not do that. Like
Mike: Yeah.
Pavel: often it's saying that children that put the hand on the hot burner.
Boris: Burned.
Mike: Yeah.
Boris: And you know, so it has the experience and
Mike: Yes.
Boris: don't do it again.
Mike: Yes.
Boris: So maybe it's doing with reality, doing mind reality from the experience. So it's not a clear reality.
Mike: Yeah, not clear, no.
Boris: But it's better for me because it's making my life safer, not to do some bad things.
Pavel: Of course.
Boris: But it's illusion in some
Roman: Subconsciously.
Pavel: Subconsciously.
Robert: Subconscious.
Boris: Yeah. But I get back to—
Pavel: I develop some subconscious, or some things subconscious develop based on my [inaudible] experience.
Boris: Yes.
Pavel: But then when I encounter something real, I cannot see it clearly because of my past experience.
Mike: Well, what is clearly?
Pavel: That actually means that clearly, that—
Mike: I mean, you're imagining the situation now. So it's impossible to see things without our own feeling. So, of course, we learn not to touch something which is hot, or to avoid something, and we have intuition and so on.
Boris: Yeah.
Robert: Yes.
Mike: So reality is not something fixed, you know, which we... I made a picture. I said, Oh, it's a picture, and underneath is reality. It's rubbish. It's only a picture. It's not true.
Pavel: Another picture.
Mike: It's another picture. Yeah.
Boris: I think if you learn from
Pavel: our past experience
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: and create kind of habits or habitual patterns in
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: our life, we need these habitual patterns.
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: Without these habitual patterns, we wouldn't survive
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: in nature, even in society. But sometimes it's useful to realize that it's just a habitual pattern that we created, and
Mike: Yes.
Pavel: sometimes we need to use, and sometimes it's actually useless or, you know.
Mike: Yes. And sometimes we make a pattern when we are little, and we keep using the pattern when we get older. It doesn't work, but we still use it.
Boris: We should refresh, like on the internet.
Mike: Yes. Refresh. Passwords, yes. Not so easy to do.
Boris: Is it the same?
Mike: Hmm. So it's very complicated. But, yeah.
Boris: Fourth truth.
Mike: The Four Noble Truths.
Boris: Yes. Say something you should do. You should go the path like this.
Robert: Like the eightfold path, eight steps. There are some tools or eight.
Mike: Yes, they're truths, aren't they? They're truths. The Four Noble Truths don't say you should. Nowhere is it written you should. It says, marga satya, for instance. So, first truth, second truth, third truth, fourth truth. Just truth. So, you know, people say suffering.
So human beings suffer, and then other truths and so on. So it doesn't say you should do this. Some people say you should do this, and they make an effort to be good. But reality is good and bad mixed together. So if you try to be good, you have to get rid of bad. So where does it go? You know, this is Christian, this is spiritual religions. God is good, the devil is bad, so God has to win in the battle between good and evil.
And look at the result for thousands of years. Good is fighting against evil, so evil will disappear. But reality is not like that. So, not you should. Just this is life. This is the way life is.
[inaudible, 00:56:36–00:57:00]
